Proposed rate changes for campgrounds and backcountry permits

[netllama]

The big deal here is that back country permits (and the ability to camp in specific back country sites) will no longer be free:

https://www.nps.gov/deva/learn/news/prop...ermits.htm

[Brice]

I didn't realize roadside camping along Greenwater required a permit.  There are no indications. I've apparently violated that rule a bunch of times.  Charging for camping along the entire length of greenwater seems excessive.  All the activity is in the first mile off of dante's view road, and to a lesser extent jubilee pass road.  Making some designated campsites (and charging for them) seems reasonable in those specific areas. People aren't great at following the "camp in previously disturbed areas" rule.

The NPS seeks to issue these backcountry permits online through Recreation.gov, and no longer issue them in person at visitor centers. This will allow people to acquire their backcountry permits online and plan in advance. 

Great idea, except getting a usuable cell signal in DV can be impossible much of the time, even in Furnace creek.  Why couldn't they offer both in person and online reservations?

Maybe I'll leave some official comments and pretend they aren't going into a black hole, never to be read.

[DAW89446]

I don’t know the cell signal situation these days, but in 2002 I was camping at both Furnace and Greenwater-Ramsey townsites and got a good cell signal and made several calls without dropping. But that was in the analog days, I think.

[Brice]

I don’t know the cell signal situation these days, but in 2002 I was camping at both Furnace and Greenwater-Ramsey townsites and got a good cell signal and made several calls without dropping. But that was in the analog days, I think.

I don't understand the technical reasons behind it, but being able to make reliable phone calls does not mean you can send a text message or load a webpage.

The service in Furnace is sometimes good enough to load a webpage,  but usually not.  Same goes for stovepipe.  It's probably dependent on the number of phones connecting to whatever tower is providing the signal at any given time.

[netllama]

I don’t know the cell signal situation these days, but in 2002 I was camping at both Furnace and Greenwater-Ramsey townsites and got a good cell signal and made several calls without dropping. But that was in the analog days, I think.

I don't understand the technical reasons behind it, but being able to make reliable phone calls does not mean you can send a text message or load a webpage.

The service in Furnace is sometimes good enough to load a webpage,  but usually not.  Same goes for stovepipe.  It's probably dependent on the number of phones connecting to whatever tower is providing the signal at any given time.

Texts require the least resources (compared with voice calls or any internet/web usage). Internet/web is a completely different ball game. Huge resources, and very different tech reqhirements. If you can make a voice call but not text something is very screwed up.

[Beardilocks]

I have frequently made voice calls in Furnace but struggled to get txts out. Some would go and some wouldn't. We used to joke that the FC Ranch had cell blockers up so that you would have to buy their expensive WIFI.

I didn't realize roadside camping along Greenwater required a permit.  There are no indications. I've apparently violated that rule a bunch of times.  Charging for camping along the entire length of greenwater seems excessive.  All the activity is in the first mile off of dante's view road, and to a lesser extent jubilee pass road.  Making some designated campsites (and charging for them) seems reasonable in those specific areas. People aren't great at following the "camp in previously disturbed areas" rule.

AFAIK they added Greenwater Rd to the list of other just recently and didn't announce it. It was NOT on the permit list last season when we were there. A ranger I had spoken to mentioned it was something they were looking at for the future. I'm extremely displeased about it, but what can you do.

Also AFAIK they have released no maps of what parts of Greenwater Valley are permitted and what's off limits etc. I have looked and not been able to find anything.

[netllama]

I have frequently made voice calls in Furnace but struggled to get txts out. Some would go and some wouldn't. We used to joke that the FC Ranch had cell blockers up so that you would have to buy their expensive WIFI.

Joking aside, texts don't use wifi at all, they require cell service. They were originally created to take advantage of the extra, unused capacity on cellular network that voice calls didn't need or consume.

That said, I've seen similar problems in some remote corners of the world, where texts fail to send but voice calls work, with some horrible audio quality. My guess is that they're running the network very lean, and there's basically no spare capacity to squeeze the texts into the voice network.

[Kauri]

I think (but someone please correct me if I'm wrong!) that what Beardilocks may be encountering is his iPhone wants to send via iMessage (which I *think* tries to use internet data, not cellular data) and it's radically slow since internet data is slow in FC; whereas if it were sending a "regular" text via cellular data that would be a different story? Just a guess.

[Beardilocks]

I think (but someone please correct me if I'm wrong!) that what Beardilocks may be encountering is his iPhone wants to send via iMessage (which I *think* tries to use internet data, not cellular data) and it's radically slow since internet data is slow in FC; whereas if it were sending a "regular" text via cellular data that would be a different story? Just a guess.

I believe this to be correct.  Good catch.  Getting an iPhone to switch back & forth btw text and iMessage can be frustrating.

[DAW89446]

The service in Furnace is sometimes good enough to load a webpage,  but usually not.  Same goes for stovepipe.  It's probably dependent on the number of phones connecting to whatever tower is providing the signal at any given time.

I apologize, let me clarify: By "Furnace," I meant Furnace ghost town, in the hills northwest of Greenwater ghost town; not Furnace Creek. At that time, I don't think there was any cellular service in the main valley. There was service in Greenwater Valley, and also Panamint Valley at that time (I traveled weekly between my home in Big Pine and Trona via Panamint Valley until I left the job in Trona in 2004).

In 2002, I was using an analog flip phone. Phone based internet was around but still somewhat a novelty; I don't remember it being widely used then (the iPhone didn't come out until nearly two years later). I was still in the age of dial-up at home.

But my first night out, I was able to call my wife, retrieve my phone messages and respond to a call from my vehicle insurance company without dropping any of the calls. Checking my field notes, I see:

* Furnace townsite: It was after dark. I had two bars of signal. I made a call to my wife in Big Pine; I called my apartment in Trona to retrieve messages off the answering machine (I was working there, renting the apartment for use during my 4-day work week); one ten minute call to Victorville about my vehicle insurance.

* At my camp at the Greenwater/Ramsey townsite the following evening, I had two bars signal at my camp at the west side of the townsite, but at the auto club sign a half mile east one bar. I made no phone calls that evening.

After I made my phone calls, I went to charge my nearly dead video camera battery and realized I had forgotten to bring the charger...   It was the first day of a three day, two night trip with a dead camera battery. But hey! I could make phone calls from a ghost town!