Greetings Everyone,

I have been thinking about this subject for a while and after seeing some recent posts I wanted to generate some discussion about
what I have named "routes etiquette" (not sure if that is the right name for it)

What got me started about this was the decommission of panamintcity.com. I see different opinions and feelings about that subject and
I am really looking forward to hear your thoughts about what is the appropriate way to use a route, what people should do and not do about
reports, maps, gps tracks, etc. (maybe gps tracks is a different kind of worms and topic)

For example: If I grab Michel Digonnet book and I hike all the routes described in the book. Is it ok to write a  detailed hiking report?
(Naturally you will start by saying "I found this route on Michel Digonnet book...) but how do people feel about that?
In that same line of ideas, would you do the same with the routes from panamintcity.com? Are the Diggonet routes different in some way
to the Hall routes? What is the appropriate level of respect given to route-trailblazers? Does anyone know of any legal issues that might be
at play (can you copyright a route?) ?

I am of the opinion that if you do the hike and put the miles under your feet, that it is fair for you to write a report of your experience, with the
correct acknowledgement of your research sources.

Like I said I really want to hear your thoughts, I like to hear people smarter than me and more experienced than me. See if I learn something
new.

Thank you

Good topic for discussion, though I've also heard a wide variety of opinions on this, and I would definitely appreciate hearing folks' thoughts!

How I've aimed to handle the items you've mentioned is partly based on my experiences in mathematics research as a graduate student. In math, if you learned about something from a particular source, it's proper and polite to cite your references, so kind of out of habit I've carried this over to writing trip reports. (I have admittedly not been consistent about this in my earliest trip reports, though.) Many of the DV hikes I've done I learned about from Digonnet's book or Steve Hall's webpage. And sometimes after just picking a canyon and hiking up it, I've looked online and later seen that canyoneering folks had descended it. In reading reports, different folks focus on different aspects of the hike. Some focus on the scenery; I try to focus a bit also on the potential challenges encountered when doing the hike. So I think it's great if there are many reports available online for the same hike.

If there's already a trip report about an area online, or a hike is written up in a book, I've figured it's okay to write about it. However, that may not be the best practice, because there are places I've come across and shared info on with folks from the NPS and they've said because of the sensitive nature of the area (e.g. a natural bridge, or fossils) that they'd like keep the exact location off the internet; and I'm seeing some of these appearing in reports online. So anything that has a sensitive geological feature, or fossils, or petroglyphs/rock alignments etc. should probably either stay off the web or at least don't give any clues of how to find it. But that's just my two cents, others will probably disagree.

And most names are unofficial, plus some canyons have many different names, particularly in the "Ten Canyons" region (Steve Hall's name for that area) in the Cottonwoods, also known as the "Princess Bride Canyons" on canyoneering sites. I figure the names are unofficial and just a way to refer to a particular canyon, rather than saying e.g. "five drainages south of Cottonwood" or something like that.

The way I look at it:

Just because a route, location, trail, etcetera has been covered before doesn’t make it exclusive; otherwise every documentary, TV travelogue, book, magazine article, website with focus on a region, etcetera would be technically illegal or at least unethical because there’s likely no place on earth that hasn’t been covered before. Each person’s experience will be different and their perspective shared will add to the overall appeal. There is simply no way everything there is to reveal can be revealed in a single trip report, book or documentary about any topic. Each writer adds their own unique flavor to subsequent writings, revealing something new to the enlightenment of others.

In the days I had my website, as well as in my published writings, if my sources were from copywrited writings, I cited them. There are publications available that have cited my works as well.

Occasionally DVNP and other government agencies would contact me to request changes, especially when route closures were made, and I made those changes. There were instances that while in the field doing photography in preparation for a web page there was no signage indicating closure that was in progress.

I’ve been taken to task or threatened with legal action by others who felt that they exclusively owned the rights to cover something. Or attempts were made to censure me because they were engaged in nefarious activities and felt I was a threat to their exposure. The few times someone contacted me and explained that what I published had the potential for negative effects, if I felt was valid I would accommodate that with changes or removal.

Though I’m not versed in copywrite laws, I always watermarked my online photos to identify myself as the photographer. I’ve seen a few of my photos on other websites that I didn’t give permission to use, with the watermark, or it cropped out.

In handling sensitive locations I seen it all online. Some openly blurted out coordinates for the world to see, others changed names, others kept mum. My practice was and is to treat each location specifically  with reason, logic and observation. Highly sensitive artifacts or locations I either didn’t mention or did in vague terms. Other places I would, especially if well known, that I saw discussion of online or elsewhere, mentioning it on my website with a disclaimer. Especially if I observed over time more visitation and/or vandalism. When people inquired of me if I knew of something or where it was, if I knew the individual and trusted them, then I would share what I knew. Others whom I didn’t know I’d just tell them it was in a general area and let them continue to do their own homework and discover it on their own. My thinking is that the more effort one makes to find something, the less likely one will be inclined to destroy it. But there’s always those who defy that sort of logic.

As to sites degrading or disappearing, time and circumstances have contributed to ghost towns and cabins falling down and less appealing. Many historical locations started being plundered right after abandonment due to objects and buildings taken elsewhere to be used. Escalation occurred after WW2 when military surplus Jeeps became popular and visitation increased. Publications, such as Desert Magazine, highlighted historic sites and advertised metal detectors. Roadside curio shops popped up in the 1950s, offering indigenous and other artifacts. Pilfering antiques, of course, was just as illegal then as it is now given that the Antiquities Act was passed in the first decade of the 20th century. But a lot of stuff was lost to private collections early on, not just after the invention of the world wide web. Publication can be a two edged sword. We’ve all witnessed the vandalism that has occurred with increased knowledge of sensitive sites; increased visitation also has a self policing effect as people come to embrace and make attempts to clean up and save places.

When handling the names of other people, if their names were publicly known I mentioned them in full. If not, I’d use initials to protect their privacy.

Since it’s been nearly a decade since I’ve left off writing and website ownership, I’ve probably forgotten more than I recall to add to this discussion at this point, so I’ll just leave it at that. Until something is posted that spurs my memory then I’ll add my two cents if what I have to say is relevant and helpful.

All of the routes in Digonnet's book and on panamintcity.com are on public land. They are free to be visited and written up by anybody. The first visitors to most of these sites were the early miners who combed the park for minerals. I don't see that there is any obligation to cite someone as having done a prior write up. In my own reports, I sometimes cite a guidebook or web site in case someone wants complete documentation on routes, GPS co-ordinates, and so forth. Michel Digonnet and Steve Hall obviously expected that people would use their information to hike the same places that they did.

(2022-01-19, 10:11 AM)DAW89446 Wrote:  I’ll add my two cents if what I have to say is relevant and helpful.

David, your two cents are worth more than their weight in gold in my book. Your sensitivity to the history, geology, science, politics, and adventure of Death Valley National Park continues to increase my enjoyment of time spent in the park. Thanks for taking the time to share your desert wisdom in this forum.

(2022-01-18, 09:03 PM)Algol Wrote: For example: If I grab Michel Digonnet book and I hike all the routes described in the book. Is it ok to write a  detailed hiking report?
(Naturally you will start by saying "I found this route on Michel Digonnet book...) but how do people feel about that?
In that same line of ideas, would you do the same with the routes from panamintcity.com? Are the Diggonet routes different in some way
to the Hall routes? What is the appropriate level of respect given to route-trailblazers? Does anyone know of any legal issues that might be
at play (can you copyright a route?) ?

Yes of course its ok to write a report. Put it this way, if you go on vacation to Iceland is it ok to have a trip report or is it desrespectful to the Lonelyplanet guide you used? Reports provide very necessary current conditions, inspiration, beta and day dreaming while im bored at work so please do.

The only legal issues would be if you stole material.

Re sensitive areas I think social media is the place to be VERY wary of. Sudently an instagram photo becomes a hit and everyone and their grandma wants that same photo and natural spaces become trampled and abused by people that want the likes and dont give an f about protecting the nature.
It is also concerning to me to see Kaleidoscope and Room Canyon on Alltrails...
But in blogs dedicated to nature and hiking i expect is less of an issue because of the audience but im making assumptions.

What's the issue with Kaleidoscope, Room, or any other unrestricted areas being featured on websites like All Trails?

Huge fan of Digonnet, but I don't think I've referenced his work/influence in the few trip reports I did in the past.

Having had what I thought was a lame interaction with an individual who used to host a site on the internet with lots of Death Valley information, I've since lost most of my interest in interacting with the online DV community on anything more than a casual level. I'd rather be outside and enjoy the park with real human beings.

My be only my personal terror that they will eventually get killed by the gram. Hopefully unfounded.

(2022-01-19, 01:34 PM)Daymoth Wrote: Re sensitive areas I think social media is the place to be VERY wary of. Sudently an instagram photo becomes a hit and everyone and their grandma wants that same photo and natural spaces become trampled and abused by people that want the likes and dont give an f about protecting the nature.

I’ve seen some pretty stupid things happen at historic sites in the name of fifteen seconds of fame on You Tube. The same need for a fix of “likes” fuel the desire for people to get within a millimeter of the edge of the Grand Canyon or Half Dome for a selfie …  

(2022-01-19, 03:38 PM)DAW89446 Wrote: I’ve seen some pretty stupid things happen at historic sites in the name of fifteen seconds of fame on You Tube. The same need for a fix of “likes” fuel the desire for people to get within a millimeter of the edge of the Grand Canyon or Half Dome for a selfie …  

Notes to-from self about selfies: 

The selfie craze has spread worse than Covid. One aspect of my DEVA videos is that in spite of "Brad Pitt" good looks you'll rarely if ever see my mug in the video. This is because the vids are about DEVA, NOT me. I consider myself to be a distraction to the video scene selection. Not to brag but see how humble I am. 

When seeing the park visitors toting their selfie sticks I muse about the poor friends and family who will subjected to the torture of the "home movie syndrome" later on. However, besides enveloping myself in DEVA's expanses and isolation I also love stopping in at the Visitors Center, Zabriskie Point, Dante's View, Badwater, Mesquite Sand Dunes, etc to witness the awe and excitement park visitors experience. Most of them seem so happy. Not always, but I often enjoy taking the time to assist visitors by taking their camera and framing up a decent shot of them and their loved ones with a gorgeous scene in the background. They seem to smile even bigger when this happens. 

BTW, I have not seen a drone up in the air the past few visits to the park which I hope is a permanent trend.