Opinions About Routes Etiquette

[MojaveGeek]

Wow, a lot going on here.

First, gotta say, I'm with Daymoth on the alltrails thing; just a day or two ago I checked and was rather shocked to find those two specific places listed. I may have been asked to maintain secrecy for Room, from an NPS employee at least indirectly. Kaleidoscope is a special place to me and I got it from word of mouth. There were no tracks into either of those places when I hiked them, years (7+) ago. So what's the alltrails deal? Well once it is there, here come the hordes - that is what a lot of people use for their beta, and it is so easy, right? You just follow the GPS track in real time. No navigating. No looking at the topo map and trying to figure out which of the possible canyons a mile across the flats is the one you want. No skill. No reading the terrain or the evidence of people passage.

Does that mean any place is "secret" in this day and age? Nope. Can't be. Or rather, if you want it to be secret, tell no one. Now those two hikes are easy, but I was also looking at alltrails routes in East Zion slickrock country, which has no trails, and where you could get seriously lost, but they are out there now. That is more chilling to me than a couple of the DV spots.

I guess I sort of figure that there's a set of destinations that you figure are going to become "front country" trails - you sacrifice them for the people who come through and want a "taste". Golden Canyon to Zabriskie Pt. Mosaic. Fall (wow that trail has become super heavily used in the last decade). Heck I can remember where there were sheep trails but no real use trails up to Corkscrew. One issue in the desert is that there is no recovery - once a trail is tramped into the ground, it will be there 100 years later - often more, I know people who follow old Native American trails out there.

But is that selfish?

I first went to DV in 1990. There was no "web". The only publication was a small book by Gephardt with horribly not-to-scale maps. But it got me started. I followed those, and then had the joy to start making my own routes (which you'll never get if you just follow alltrails). Suddenly, wham, Digonnet came out. I was angry at first, as he revealed many of the places I had "discovered" (for myself, no pretense of having been the first to go there). But I tempered that with the fact that he opened a lot of doors for me in suggesting places I had not been to.

So the body of "common knowledge" is steadily increasing. As is visitation. There is pressure on the resources but precious little we can do about it. But I will never put a place I love on alltrails.

[MojaveGeek]

OK, that last rant from me got us to a second page

When I go some place, I put a lot of work into research. Books, maps, web searches, including finding pix and pulling out the coordinates from the EXIF headers in the jpegs Google earth. My own photos. Pestering friends Why? Because I want the best experience I can have in the limited number of days of a trip, and the limited number of years I have left for being able to do such trips. I see no reason to purposely ignore potentially useful info (one of the best pieces of info being knowledge of when you won't be able to get past an obstacle).

But at the same time, when I really know a place I can "pioneer" routes - just put things together and go some place I've not seen any write up or GPS track or whatever for. And I enjoy pushing these - it is a lot of fun to work something out and it works, and adventuresome to try something that fails (I'm still looking for a mythical route to the summit of Bald Peak from the east).

Anybody who publishes a route is putting it out for others. So there is no reason not to go there. Or write a report about it Usually for shorthand I might say "The Steve Hall route to XXX" or some such. But I'm not in the business of putting out enough detail to allow someone to casually replicate it. For instance, here I've mentioned "the old road between 190 and McClean spring on the west side of Salt Creek". That's enough info for you to find it, if you take a look at the sat images (and it's worth going to). Ditto the "old Indian trail to Lemoigne Canyon, the one from 190 but not from Emigrant Campground, which has the second small Roode Rock". If I trust you and you ask, though, I'll give you a GPS track.

But social media is different. I saw an interesting piece a few months ago arguing that posting geo-tagged images of outdoor place was inconsistent with Leave No Trace ethics. I think I buy that argument.

One of the things I have enjoyed about this forum is finding like minded people who will share with me, both give and get, to give me more ideas, more motivation to just get out and be wandering around the desert. But there is a contradiction if people feel they want to talk about a place but still keep it secret. Keep your secrets.

A major exception is petroglyphs. One should not reveal the location of unpublished petros, but can can post un-tagged images out of respect for the original artists. But there's fun in that too Some years ago I was out with a friend in an area where he is without doubt one of, if not the, expert. We went to some published petros. He knew there was another site in the area, but did not know where. We were wandering around in and out of little canyons just looking at the scenery and beautiful rocks, when we came around a corner and found this amazing panel We'd stumbled on the site. That made it SO MUCH more memorable!

[Daymoth]

Totally agree with the "front country" concept. Thats the beauty of it. There should be trails that are wheelchair accessible. Family friendly trails. Tourist friendly trails. Backcountry offtrails. Technical adventures. Backpacking adventures. Trails where you dont see a human in 3 days. Im concerned alltrails is going to make two canyons that had a sense of solitude, discovery and adventure a busy trail. I hope its not the case!

[trailhound]

When Steve Hall first documented Room Canyon, he kept the exact location secret. Later, the park service was leading guided tours. Here is a snip from the web site taken a few years ago.



Steve's own web site contained detailed directions to Kaleidoscope Canyon with maps and GPS co-ordinates.

So, these places are not exactly confidential. Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, you can't get it back in.

[Daymoth]

I dont want them to be secret!

Just not on instagram or alltrails. Maybe it makes me hypocrite I dont know.

[John Morrow]

I think about this quite a bit.  In most western mountains against civilization, and in redrock country, I now hesitate to post any atypical crosscountry routes.  In Death Valley, and in the Mojave in general, I am amazed how few people I see off the 4WD roads/trails and known routes/trails.  I do post those to aid others who are more familiar with an area already.  Hopefully I am not encouraging the masses.  I inadvertently have done that in other regions and am modifying the level of detail or omitting altogether in such places. I try to ask myself "why am I posting" and "what impact could it potentially have" before I click send.  I probably am in a bit of denial as to how many lurkers there are out there monitoring trip report sites.  I ignorantly believe I am mostly reaching the few regulars who might appreciate a report.  If anyone does a route I have posted and runs in to a disproportionate level of use, I'd want to hear about it.

[DAW89446]

I probably am in a bit of denial as to how many lurkers there are out there monitoring trip report sites. 

From my experience, it was when I removed my website that I found out there were a considerable number of lurkers who lived vicariously through my pages, and who clamored, whined and who sent people to my door to demand/plead that I recant and reinstate my site. Not once, but twice.

[MojaveGeek]

Well, John, I have been aware of some of your angst on the issue (not sure if from this board or nwhikers) and indeed have followed your posts, both to enjoy your trips vicariously as we as to seek more interesting wild places to go myself. I have figured out, however, that you are a stronger scrambler, or less worried about exposure, than I am

I have been particularly fond of the DV boards, In part, they are an example of what I consider to be a fascinating offshoot of social media, that is, location based media. (Usually when we say "location based" we mean "where I am now" but in this case, it is some fixed geographic area). Each of the areas I haunt (DV, SW Utah, southern AZ, WA, MT, CO, and the Sierra) tends to have a group of dedicated hikers who are willing to share info, once you establish a place within the community. We used to have a great Zion forum but it vaporized with Yahoo groups, and I can tell you, the FB groups suck by comparison!

So I would never post anything I care about to alltrails, or FB - this is "lurkers in the extreme". In some of the other fora, I will describe a trip either in vague terms so that those in the know will recognize it and maybe get some current beta or ideas, or perhaps reference the source of my beta (e.g. "Steve Hall" or "Kauri" or even.. "John Morrow"). That last aspect is more out of gratitude and trying to plug someone.

In the case of both DV and east Zion and further east (extensive off trail travel) I have run into and become part of a community willing to share info with each other, but often not publicly. A lot of what I have learned about both places, and led to tons of enjoyment, has been from these people, and I also have been glad to pay back. This would not have occurred without the "community" aspect.

Blue Mountain is an interesting example, and perhaps a cautionary tale. I went up to Borax BM based on something that Kauri said, and was stunned by Blue. Talked a bunch with Kauri about access via Artist Palette, and it took me a few years, but eventually I got into its lower slopes. Then DV Dazed became an apostle and in fact summited, multiple times! and left a register I believe. Now we see it showing up elsewhere - e.g. Stav's site. I have really enjoyed the sense of community fostered by this story. I don't mind if Stav posts it because I mine his site for beta as well, about other places. But have we blown it? Is there going to be a beaten down trail to the summit in 10 years?

It is a really beautiful mountain. I would never have seen it except for posts from Kauri that I read here. Probably was not enough info in her posts to get me there, and so I probably asked her, and she told me probably because she respected that I had shared other info with her, and with others...

And then.... the lurkers. Don't know what to do about that.

But the flip side is that I don't own the park. It is public land. I can't be possessive of it.

[TacoLand]

Not to be super flippant ... but sometimes I wonder how nice the area must have been before all the white people showed up and started claiming ownership. And then started fretting over the fact that people literally did the exact same thing they did – explored a canyon, hiked a peak, etc. – but happened to do it a few days, weeks, or years later.

Sure, maybe some of us figured out routes or whatnot without the aid of online guides, Instagram, All Trails, etc., "back in the day" ... but this area was explored & traversed for hundreds of years (if not more) without the aid of The Fancy Inn Next to the Palm Trees, Farabee’s, REI memberships, satellite phones, Search & Rescue, ultralight gear, etc. etc. etc. etcccc.

Hrmm, okay, that might have been a little flippant despite my best efforts.

At the end of the day I just don't know / feel that I'm any better than anyone else, or that it is my place to gatekeep others from finding their own enjoyment in the area. It's a dead end conversation and lousy feeling to have. Perhaps it would be more fruitful to apply one's energy to advocacy and education instead. I've certainly become a better "partner" in my relationship with Death Valley based upon time spent in the Park and guidance from those that knew more than me, and helped me improve my behavior, as I used to break a rule or two without even thinking about it.

[DAW89446]

 But the flip side is that I don't own the park.  It is public land.  I can't be possessive of it.

Good point, well said.

Even if they pack down a trail to various off the beaten path summits, logic tells me that only a tiny percentage of visitors will walk them. If off the beaten path now, it will be then as well.